\Get the Daily.\\](https://no-cache.hubspot.com/cta/default/443614/interactive-178419499578.png)](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/hs/cta/wi/redirect?encryptedPayload=AVxigLJlpjy09B7qlMQmP8BzTuW6LM6OzqJ19jSHKNbKUmDvDkDTYM3uA2xPUezxulNwkZBayIVHJu2%2B9VRJUf46lnk8392vfsddNztRV6%2BwoXDvdeOeFFgK%2FLQGuSOcGO%2Ff%2F9IbUP58k4PrfAjltQDrcsx8h8dwOJa1c9wNOox9er60TMGoKgOAVr4KnFQP%2F5RU54i%2Bl5lSMTft&webInteractiveContentId=178419499578&portalId=443614)
## The best lines
"Systems don't reduce creativity, they increase creativity because they create space for that creativity."
—David Jenyns
"Capture what you're currently doing, not what you would like to be doing."
—David Jenyns
"Once you actually see it, you can't unsee it."
—David Jenyns
**Get David's book:** *SYSTEMology: Create Time, Reduce Errors and Scale Your Profits with Proven Business Systems*. Start here: **[systemology.com](https://www.systemology.com)**
Like this one? You'll also like [my conversation with **Andy Paul**](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/andy-paul-2) and [this one with **Lee Salz**](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/lee-salz).
## Transcript
*Skim the chapter headings and jump to what you care about.*
### 0:00—Can you really create time?
**Wes:** There we go. David Jenyns, author of SYSTEMology. Create time, reduce errors, and scale your profits with proven business systems, all the way from you're Swedish, right?
Is that the accent I'm picking up Swedish?
**David:** I think everybody will spot the Australian accent from down under.
**Wes:** British, Australia, like it's all the same thing, right? No, yeah.
**David:** Yeah, well we're the ones that ride the kangaroos to work.
**Wes:** Well hey, I rode alligators to work in Louisiana. So like we're like practically related.
**Wes:** Cool, man. Well, thanks for the book. thanks for carving out some time.
It's your Tuesday morning. let me ask you something, man. Can we really create time?
**David:** Possible we can. We're just selling which a nice little spin on the save time. I think it's we all obviously have limited time, but a lot of business owners because they get caught in that busy work, sometimes by freeing themselves up from that, it almost feels like you're creating time because everybody feels like some of these things they have to do.
So when you can get that off their plate, it can be a bit of a game changer.
### 1:26—The HOA vice president who burned out
**Wes:** Yeah, it's there's different types of entrepreneurs and like I'm the president of our HOA. Did do y'all have homeowners associations in Australia? Yeah.
Okay. So I never envisioned myself even being on the board, let alone the president. But after COVID, I was so pissed off at how the board ran things and shut the pool down and i was just mad.
So this another guy wanted to run. Well
**Wes:** He's a little bit older and very organized, very detail oriented. He's kind of a fixer at this big conglomerate, international conglomerate. They buy franchises and other businesses and fix them or chop them up.
And so he's driven. This guy had a vision, right? I thought I'd be on the side, they'd make me president, but he was behind the scenes like doing everything.
Well, and that was the problem. He did everything, and now he's burned out, and he just I get a I get a text message over the weekend, you know, by the way, you know, because we our board meeting is this upcoming Wednesday. And he's says, yeah, that'll be my last day.
What? He started like all these major projects. And he admitted he was spending 40 hours a month as an HOA vice president.
And now he's burned out. But like the it that's like common for small businesses, isn't it?
### 2:35—Why owners get trapped in their own business
**David:** Yeah. Yeah, it's like they have a picture in their head of what they're building and that picture has them right in the middle of it. Oftentimes they're the hairdresser who knows how to cut the hair, it's the landscape gardener who knows how to work the gardens, it's the plumber who knows how to do the pipes, and then they start a business and very quickly they learn hang on, there's **a whole different set of skills required to run the business versus just doing the work**.
Like Michael Gerber talks about sort of that technician work and the picture they have in their head is them doing the work. So they build a business like the picture in their head. But then it's oftentimes very hard to change that because all of the success that they have in their business as they get the business up and running and off the ground, that just reinforces the behavior that helped them build this small successful business, but then It's also what then traps them from moving beyond that and r reducing that key person dependency.
**Wes:** Yeah. can people learn this? You know, are they just stubborn and you know have to almost fail?
I mean, I've talked to a lot of people that, you know, they do learn it eventually, but usually it's like they have to rise up from the ashes. They gotta hit that rock bottom before it their hard heads open up and listen to concepts like you cover.
### 4:28—The catalyst that makes owners change
**David:** Yeah, I think and it varies, but the most common people that come into our world have got existing businesses with traction, small teams, right product to market fit, and they've been doing it for a good period of time, but they're just finding they're on this treadmill and it's a bit of a game of whack-a-mole and they're so solving the same problems again and again and again, whether it's with staff or clients and it's that experience to then really that's what gets them to appreciate systems and processes and gets them thinking about hey this is unsustainable or I can see someone else building a business that looks like it's moving quicker than mine or isn't as dependent on them as mine. This is something I need to figure out. Like for me also And I've seen it a few times where there's often a catalyst.
So for myself personally, we found out we were pregnant. And then I thought, I don't want to be the dad that's always too busy. And that was a big driving force for me.
And similarly, **a lot of the clients will have a catalyst**. Sometimes it's a medical emergency in the family, or maybe the business owner is looking to exit. but it's oftentimes you need something.
to really drive because a systems culture and building a systems driven business has challenges. It doesn't have automatic like happen automatically. You don't see the great results straight away.
And you've really got to persist with it. So that driving force is often a critical component in making it happen and making it stick.
**Wes:** Yeah. is there a common area that you start with someone? Like more often than not, do you start with marketing or do you start with getting paid, you know, collecting funds?
Is it back office, you know, operations? Yes. Like where anything common?
### 6:39—Where to start: the first 10 to 15 systems
**David:** The first step in SYSTEMology is to answer that question around where do we start and **how do we identify the first 10 to 15 systems**. So that the exercise that I go through is firstly you map the linear journey that the primary dream client goes through to purchase a primary product or service and you map this journey of grabbing their attention. Handling the incoming inquiry, selling them, onboarding them, taking some money, delivering the core product or service, and then getting them to come back.
And we do that very high level first. And then within that picture, generally we ask, where in there is the pain? Like what is the bit that the business owner thinks, if I had a hundred more clients, this bit breaks, or a bit that they find personally painful or they don't like doing or they feel like they're the bottleneck.
Generally that's the way that we uncover and it can vary. Some businesses, it's lead generation, some it's sales. And also some of it is around delivery of the product or service.
So every business can be a little bit different. Oftentimes it depends on where the business owner's strengths tend to lie. Sometimes you'll find if a business owner is particularly strong at something, they tend to be the bottleneck at it.
because then they just feel like they're the one that has to do it and they're bringing some certain level of magic. But at least by starting in that critical client flow and working within there, we're working towards at least getting to a point where the business can make money without that key person dependency. And that's really the guiding light for where you start, which is we want to make sure that the business can make money without the business owner's dependency, without any of their key team members.
**Can the business make money regardless of which team member's there?** And if once you could solve that problem, you can actually fix just about any other problem in business.
More from The Sales Podcast
- [Jon Ostenson on non-food franchising](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/franchise-ownership-jon-ostenson)
- [Simon Severino on AI sales systems](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/ai-sales-systems-simon-severino)
- [Justin Welsh on the solopreneur business](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/justin-welsh-2)
### 8:59—The Initial Process Assessment
**Wes:** Yeah, I do a thing. I call my the IPA, the Initial Process Assessment. And I and I walk them through and I tell them, you know, describe for me or document your current plus ideal process.
Cause usually they have either no process or very small. Well, calls come in, we talk to people, we take their money, you know, we deliver. Okay.
Yeah. How would you like it to be? Well, we'd love for orders to come in and then what?
You know, and then it's assigned to operations or fulfillment. And the and then the manager calls and thanks them for coming on board. Okay, how do you do that?
Right? We don't have any tools, you know. But usually they can't even think, they can't even envision it.
I mean, it's almost like we just adopted this dog, right? And it was it was literally. homeless like eating out of a they found it in the dumpster got trapped in a dumpster right and so if your whole world is just a dumpster yeah you know it's like no peek your head out no it's okay like there's a lot of food what go run go jump in the lake it's okay like they can't even they can't even envision that right they can't think of automation and multimedia like I can do SMS and this can fulfill and I can have a left I can send mail chocolate to my customers automatically?
Like what? Like, you know, how do you get them to even expand the potential in their in their brain?
### 10:41—Capture the process before you improve it
**David:** One thing that we do, a lot of it has to do with creating space first. And to a certain extent, SYSTEMology, what makes it different from everything that's come before it in the world of systems, most of it is process improvement, like lean and Six Sigma, but that preassumes that you have a process that's a baseline and you're then looking to improve it. **SYSTEMology is actually almost like the step before what you were talking about there, which is Process capture**.
And it's the first step of what you talked about, where we first say, what are you currently doing? Let's capture that. Let's go.
Well, who answers the phone the best? What is it that they're saying? Well, let's capture that because Sally does that really well.
And then let's make that the new baseline. And then have everybody do that because most small business, what they struggle with is consistency. And you can get tremendous wins by just being consistent and delivering something to a set standard.
And then it actually sets up for experts like yourself, because the first thing that the consultant will say is, well, what are you currently doing? And for a lot of businesses, well, there is no proper baseline. They're not doing anything consistently.
It's a all a little bit over the shop. Jenny does this, Sally does that. Bob does that.
And it makes it harder for the consultant to go, I don't have a baseline here. I'm well, we're gonna have to just re-engineer the process. Whereas what we do is it's almost like we set it up.
And by saying, let's make it repeatable, capture what you're currently doing, not what you would like to be doing. That then creates enough space for the key team members to then start to go, how would we like it to be? And that's how.
The first step of getting out of the dumpster is to make sure that things are kind of operating, which allows the business owner and those key team members to step out of the dumpster and then do the thinking and then re-engineer something or work with someone like yourself that then re-engineers the world class process and then replaces the old one.
### 13:02—How a Florida daycare filled 22 empty seats
**Wes:** Yeah. Yeah. So good.
one of my still one of my best client stories is all the way back in like it's like 2010. And this family owned daycare, child care, called me up. And they're all the way in Florida.
And I'm in California. And like they didn't have the budget to fly me out there. Right.
So we're doing everything remote. Took us 87 days. And I know because the owner came on with my partner back then and did a 45 minute interview of how it went.
and so we start out, I was an Infusionsoft partner. So we started out with their Infusionsoft, like improved some systems. We redid their website, improved the SEO, did some like referral stuff of parents because they had they had capacity.
Capacity for like 96 students, but they had 22 empty seats. Yeah. So that was all profit, right?
Because they had to have they already had the facility and they had enough teachers. So the teachers just weren't full, right? And so we did all this.
And so SEO, the websites popping, leads are coming in, and like sales weren't going up. And I'm like, what the hell? So I was like, just process of elimination.
I'm like, walk me through this. So, so imagine this. So, 13 years ago, you know, daycare, they're in a college town in Florida.
So these nice young women, you know, have a whatever, you know, degree in teaching or in English or whatever, but and they want to work with kids. So they weren't paid very much, like thirty-six thousand dollars a year back then. And this was the most expensive school in the city.
So $200 a week, right? So 10 grand. If you do a year, it's 10 grand.
So to a $36,000 a year, 25-year-old, you know, single woman that's the average teacher there. Because anybody could take a call and you could come tour the facility at any time. So it was total chaos.
Right. And so this parent walks in, they're interrupting classes. This teacher showing them around, like, well, how much is it?
You they were like, it's kind of a lot. So just like your exact example, who answers the phone, who does it the best? So we're like, okay.
**Only the owners or the director of the school can talk to prospects**. Everybody else answers the phone and takes a message. And then we narrowed it down to just two, two times per week, like Tuesday morning, Thursday afternoon, something like that.
for to do tours. Yes. And then and then I worked on the verbiage on how to talk to prospects, parents, and bring them in.
And so we streamlined that, filled the school up immediately. Yeah. You know, because now we didn't have people that were afraid to talk money.
And then we created demand because you show up and then there's two or three or four other parents there touring at the same time. You're like,
**Wes:** Jockeying for position. So now you're going to put a deposit down while you think about it, right? But that would hold your seat.
Bam, filled it up. You know, so I've been I've been doing the same kind of stuff. So I just haven't been smart enough to write a book on it.
### 16:46—The system for systemizing a business
**David:** I've read some of the classics like many business owners, like the E-Myth and Traction and Built to Sell, and a lot of them they really built the case for why systems. And I got bitten by the bug. And I love it when I talk to someone like yourself that is a specific like your a department expert, you know sales inside and out in sales process.
You all under also understand the business bit, but you kind of really double down on the sales side of things. there are when you can tell someone is great at what they do is when in their department when they layer systems over the top of it as in or it's the building blocks because what you're talking about there, you're capturing the system. And that applies in each of the different departments.
And I felt like when I read those, you know, E-Myth, I got to the end and I thought, yeah, I want systems. I know I need systems. Like a lot of business owners intuitively know it.
But then it's like, where do I get started? Like what comes first? What are the first systems?
How do I get my team on board? Where am I going to save these systems? you know, what happens if I get resistance and certain team members don't want to adopt this change?
How do I? navigate that and that was really what the inspiration was for me. It was kind of like, well, let's create the system for systemizing a business.
Let's try and codify this and give more of a an action plan, a how-to guide. That was kind of, but it was yeah, bit of bit of trial and error, working with a lot of businesses. But I now feel it's **it is the master skill in business as a business owner**.
To be create effective business systems. once you learn that skill, it actually touches every aspect of the business because you move into sales, marketing, finance, operations, and it's really just about how do we capture and codify best practice? How do we then delegate those tasks down to less skilled team members to then free up the higher skilled team members so they can Create that space and they can only work on the tasks that is going to add the most value to the business rather than just getting caught up in the busy work and things that have to happen.
So it was kind of like a bit of that journey that's now made me realize the better I can get at articulating this message and inspiring business owners to create systems, I think. that's where we'll w I'll have the biggest impact. And that's why I thought the book, I was kind of like, you know, a book's a great way if the book's written really well and gets great feedback to reach a very large group of people without, you know, needing to speak to every single person one on one.
### 19:55—Michael Gerber and the E-Myth
**Wes:** Yeah. Yeah, it's cool. You got the forward by Michael Gerber.
I met him through Infusionsoft. I actually had an event in San Diego. Well, a couple of times I met him, but first time was in San Diego, like around 2010, 2009, somewhere in there.
And yeah, smart dude. and he really does break it down well into the three types, you know, and the E-Myth, it took me a long time, I didn't quite realize it's the entrepreneur myth. Right.
So many people. So many people fail on that. Like, what does it really mean to be an entrepreneur?
And there's a lot to it. So, you know, I like that you get down to the basics because like I'm that kind of guy. I want the nitty gritty, you know, because you see people all the time, yeah.
Well, you know, my wife got pregnant or you know, I got laid off. And so I just started my own business and you know, now we do $10 million. It's like
**Wes:** Down a little bit. Yes. Yes.
What? Yeah. Because the everybody is a little bit different, but there are fundamentals you can you have to follow.
And but I think giving people even the hope, the inspiration, because sometimes it does seem too daunting. You know, when I heard my hired my first assistant, so I had gone back to corporate America. I'd started The Sales Whisperer®, I had it kind of running, but kind of not.
I was recruited by some peers, some old co work former co-workers, went back into high tech. It was just too lucrative. And I got seven kids.
I'm like, I gotta make some money. so I'm so I'm juggling two things, and I hired a local con a friend of mine, knew someone, and so she would come to the house, and I was like, I was so overwhelmed, you know, multiple computers, you know, and I'm like, just sit, listen. And when there's something you can do, just do it, you know.
I like mute and she'd do that and then and then kind of got her going. But I was like, you know, thank goodness she was local and can kind of look over my shoulder. But I know I'm not alone, right?
Most people they get into business and they're good at what they do and they wanna they wanna put their all into it, but then emails are piling up, invoices are piling up. Everything else, they're like, I gotta be the best web designer. I can't do any and they've never done any other stuff because they were an employee and now they're on their own, you know.
So you're giving them hope, right?
### 22:39—The checklist that freed up creativity
**David:** It sounds like you ran a digital agency also before the SYSTEMology business and where I kind of really cut my teeth was in the digital agency. I had one called Melbourne SEO, ran for 13 years. I was in the operations for 10 of it.
And I remember one day because we had a video part to the business, we would create content for people, create YouTubes and things. And I went out for a shoot with the videographer. And we only put set up that part of the business, the video, because of demand.
I didn't know how to do the thing. I'm not a camera guy. I don't know how to turn on the camera or do the editing or anything like that.
And that whole exercise was what really helped me to understand how to build a business where you're not the guy. Because I couldn't work a camera up front. So from day one, I had to build this little subpart of that business that worked without me.
And I remembered we went on a shoot one day with the videographer and we spent the entire time in the car and he's saying did we email the client to let them know not to wear checkered shirts because that doesn't look great on camera. did I pack the spare battery? did I have the extension cable?
where's that second lens? And we spent 45 minutes in the car. just talking about stuff that just should have been taken care of.
And then at the end of that shoot to I said to him, look, we need to create a checklist, which is a pre-shoot checklist. And at the studio the night before, you put the battery on charge, you pack the kit, you have everything ready to go. So in the morning you don't even have to give this a second thought.
So we put that in place. And then about six months later I go on another shoot. And the discussion that we had in that car was worlds apart.
He's talking about how he wanted to get the performance from the actors, what the script was, what shots he wanted to get. and there's that for me was a big moment to kind of go systems like there's certain things in business that just need to happen. It's like the administrative side of things.
And you just want that stuff to be taken care of. And when you're confident and comfortable that's happening. Because you've created some systems and processes, it then creates the space for all of your creativity to come out.
So that little connection for me, like running that sub business, having that experience with Adrian, that really shaped a lot of my thinking around systems and the importance and how systems they don't reduce creativity, they increase creativity because they create space for that creativity. and you're right, a lot of business owners, they especially if they're as Michael Gerber talks about, it's the entrepreneur that has this entrepreneurial seizure or the technician that has an entrepreneurial seizure. They're really a technician and then they feel like, hey, I'm gonna be an entrepreneur, but they don't know all of those other bits.
And I think the systems and the processes, if you dial that in, that helps to uncover areas of weakness because you're effectively codifying a solution. You're going, well, here's a problem in business. when we go out on shoots, sometimes we forget that spare battery.
Well I'm going to create a system that makes sure that doesn't happen next time. I'm going to create a checklist. **Now you solve that problem once and now it's forever solved**.
Because you're working at the system level because every time you're using that checklist now. And that's what enables the business owner kind of to level up. It's the compounding effect of all of these little systems, saving a bit of time, increasing a little bit of efficiency, all stacked on each other and in each of the different departments.
There's some in sales, some in marketing, some in finance, some in HR. And it's the collection of those systems that really starts to transform things for the business owner. And you kind of just need to wax on, wax off, work through this process.
it doesn't mean that you have to be the person documenting everything, but you need to at least develop a way for you to capture best process and you know have a team member who does the documentation and a place to then store that knowledge so you can c say to the team, well, this is how we do things here.
**Wes:** Yeah. Yeah, it's yeah, I love what you're saying about it, it creates space for creativity. You know, I had a guy, consultant I hired and years ago, and I was telling him, man, I was I was bored, I was just kind of in a rut, and he hopped my ass, man.
And he's like, This is when the breakthroughs come. You know, stop chasing new things. Keep going deeper.
And you know, and it makes sense because, like, when y'all were driving to that appointment and you're in this kind of fight or flight state, you're just anxious. And do we have everything? You're not thinking about the shoot.
You know, you're just trying to survive. You're just trying to get by. But as everything's documented, now you're calm and you could see something, a sunset or something, you know, you're like,
**Wes:** Hey, let's do this for this shoot. You know, a whole new thing comes to mind because you're open and receptive and you're not just full of cortisol, you know, amped up like, hope I don't screw this up and have to refund this guy. You know, but it does take a minute, right?
You have to, maybe it takes hours. You got to sit down and say, okay, what are the 37 items we have to bring? and the battery has to be charged 24 hours early.
but We gotta book a car, you know, a week early. we gotta book our flights three weeks early. So I mean you gotta it may take time to build this whole document everything, right?
But once you do it, it's done.
The Inner Circle
Build the systems in your sales process with me. Weekly office hours. $99/mo. No contracts.
[Join The Inner Circle →](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/inner-circle?utm_source=blog&utm_medium=podcast-post&utm_campaign=the-sales-podcast&utm_content=david-jenyns-inner-circle-box)
### 29:12—You need fewer systems than you think
**David:** Yeah, look. Yeah, and there are some things you can do, one to speed up the process, and two, **there's a chance that the business owner needs much less systems than they think they actually need**. So a lot of people when they think about a systemized business, they think about something like McDonald's.
Well, McDonald's is really systemized. And then they go, Well, I need to systemize my business like McDonald's. But if there's a few things they don't consider.
One, McDonald's has been doing this for 60 years. And if we look at how McDonald's is today, you don't start there. You actually want to go back and think, well, where did McDonald's get started 60 years ago?
Like they obviously didn't have everything systemized from the start. and also most people listening to this right now probably aren't running a hamburger shop. And they're not recruiting 15 year old kids off the street to flip hamburgers.
So they Don't need that level of documentation for certain things because they might be hiring A players that are skilled to a certain level and can hit the ground running and might need less documentation and they need more of a framework. So there's a bit that goes on to first thinking about you know, to what level of detail do these systems need to be documented and also who's going to be following the process. And we can also apply the 80/20.
Like we think what are the 20% of the systems that are most important that deliver the result in each department? And let's just start there. Like if you focus on the five or the 10 critical systems in each department, that dramatically reduces down what needs to be documented.
because just because you don't document something doesn't mean it's going to magically stop happening. Like your business is already still working and it's kind of running and You've got team members that are doing certain things. So all we're really doing is identifying the most important ones and doing that.
And then the last tip I've got on this is there are some little tricks you can do to reduce the burden of documentation because **the business owner is often the worst person to be doing the documentation**. and things like make it a two-person job. There's the person who knows how to do the task, the knowledgeable worker.
And then you have a second person we call the systems champion. And that person watches the knowledgeable worker doing the thing. They record them doing it.
So when there's an inbound sales inquiry, well, we record some of those phone calls that happen. They go to the systems champion. And then the systems champion used to listen to all of those and then pull the checklist from it.
But now they can even get the transcript. feed it into AI, ask AI to pull out the key steps, mush it together, and then great. Now we've got version one of the checklist of here are the seven things that you say on an inbound inquiry phone call.
And then you send it back to the knowledgeable worker and say, is this pretty good? Did I miss anything? And that's just version one.
So it's little tricks like that. around making it a two person job and dramatically reducing the number means that you can get traction much quicker than you might actually think.
### 32:44—SOPs in the military
**Wes:** Yeah. Well, and that's good too. I mean, I was in the military and stationed overseas.
And we had to document, we had to create our scope of work, right? Our SOP standard operating procedures. And I, you know, when you're running advanced technology, after you do it for a while, you just you just know, right?
And like you were saying, you Things will still get done. Well, they get done by the expert. So, but I had to really sit down and go, what buttons do I click in what order to make this thing perform?
And so then I got the least experienced person in our unit and sat him down and said, Okay, we've just been overrun. I'm dead. You're the only one working the shift right now, and you got to make this thing work based on this journal go.
So I had to see now in an ideal world, I would have had him sit with me and learn as we were going, right? And maybe flip it around, have him do it. I tell him to do it, and then I document, and he would have learned as he went.
But either way, but you know, and that's life or death. But from a business standpoint, it's life or death. I mean, I've had, you know, 600 plus entrepreneurs on this and A lot of people had they had their back against the wall.
John Jonas, I had him on years ago. He created a virtual assistance business. his, I think his wife, I don't know if they had children or maybe they were in the hospital, had a health had it was a health issue.
And so we only had limited hours to work. And so that drove him, you know, like I gotta be super efficient. And so that's what I'm saying.
I like that you're doing this. That's always been my goal. Like, how do I help the salesperson, the entrepreneur get better without hitting rock bottom?
You know, and a lot of times we can't. So, but at least here, here I can at least, you know, as they're laying there in a in a puddle of blood and drool and go, hey, when you get better, this book, it'll be waiting for you in. in your hospital room, you know, when you can open your eyes, maybe start reading that.
You know? Yes. So at least they won't do it again.
You're like, we're stubborn, right?
### 35:16—Once you see it, you can't unsee it
**David:** Yeah, it definitely feels like you know, the teacher appears when the student is ready. So sometimes some people need to hit that rock bottom to be ready and able to have their listening ears on. There are others who just intuitively get it or they've seen it somewhere else.
Like I said, oftentimes it has to be it's the picture in your head. Like I also see other. business owners, if they've worked in larger businesses or more systems driven businesses, **once you actually see it, you can't unsee it**.
Like the difference between a systems driven business and, you know, a chaos driven business, it's night and day apart. And you can't imagine not running a systems driven business once you've seen it. Because Every successful business that you know of that's grown and scaled and had any level of impact or really moved beyond key person dependency had to get systems and processes sorted at one point.
Like there's actually no other way to do it. Like passing down that tribal knowledge will only get you so far and will cause challenges because you'll be so key person dependent. So it's a problem you have to solve.
So it's a lot of it kind of you were talking about the idea of the military before. What the military does so well, and now I can see why you're naturally a systems person, is because it becomes part of your DNA. Like it's that would have been bred into you through the military.
I see all the time a lot of business owners and people who resonate with the systems message with that military background because they know it works. And they've seen how important a checklist is, and this is a life or death situation. And even if you're a pilot or a helicopter pilot that has flown for you know 30 years, you still have a pre-flight checklist that you look at and you run through because that's standard protocol, because that's how you stay safe and how you maintain consistency and ensure things get done.
So it's you intuitively know that, but some business owners they it's like they need to hit the rock bottom to go, I can't take it anymore. But I wish we could figure out a way for someone to see but hopefully something that they've said today might connect with them.
### 38:00—Where to find David
**Wes:** Yeah, for sure. So I'll be I'm linking to your book. I've got it in the show notes.
your website is systemology.com, right? Yep. Okay.
And David Jenyns. So J E N Y N S. I've never seen that last name.
Is that is that an Aussie? Is that a common name in Australia?
**David:** I think it might even be like Irish or something a few generations back and then we've moved to Australia. So yes, it's a peculiar one. Makes it easy to r remember or hard to remember.
I'm not sure.
**Wes:** Yeah, easy enough. And I mean it does stand out. So I found you on LinkedIn and like I said, I'm I'll be linking to your LinkedIn, your website, the book.
very cool. Well, thanks for carving time out of your Tuesday morning to come hang out with me.
**David:** Yeah, absolute pleasure. Wes, thanks for the time.
**Wes:** Great seeing you have a great day.
Make it run without you.
Go sell something.
---
Get a sales tip in your inbox every day.
The Daily is my free email. One idea a day to help you sell more, faster, with less stress.
[](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/hs/cta/wi/redirect?encryptedPayload=AVxigLJlpjy09B7qlMQmP8BzTuW6LM6OzqJ19jSHKNbKUmDvDkDTYM3uA2xPUezxulNwkZBayIVHJu2%2B9VRJUf46lnk8392vfsddNztRV6%2BwoXDvdeOeFFgK%2FLQGuSOcGO%2Ff%2F9IbUP58k4PrfAjltQDrcsx8h8dwOJa1c9wNOox9er60TMGoKgOAVr4KnFQP%2F5RU54i%2Bl5lSMTft&webInteractiveContentId=178419499578&portalId=443614)
## Keep listening
- [**Jeb Blount** on The Sales Podcast](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/jeb-blount-sales-training)
- [**Anthony Iannarino** on The Sales Podcast](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/anthony-iannarino)
- [**Bob Burg** on The Sales Podcast](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/bob-burg-referral-word-of-mouth-marketing)
- [**Tom Hopkins** on The Sales Podcast](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/tom-hopkins)
*Want to be a guest, or hear more episodes?* [Go here.](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/podcast-guests)
[The Sales Podcast](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/topic/the-sales-podcast)
## Related posts
[](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/abcde-sales-and-marketing-automation-step-two-bond)
[Grow Sales](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/topic/grow-sales)
## [The ABCDEs of Sales and Marketing: Bonding](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/abcde-sales-and-marketing-automation-step-two-bond)
 [Wes Schaeffer](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/author/wes-schaeffer)
Apr 23, 2025
2026 Update From Wes The tools changed. The platforms got new names, new features, and new prices....
[Read more](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/abcde-sales-and-marketing-automation-step-two-bond)
[](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/abcs-sales-and-marketing-automation-step-one-attract)
[Sales Training](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/topic/sales-training)
## [The ABCDEs of Sales and Marketing Start With Attraction](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/abcs-sales-and-marketing-automation-step-one-attract)
 [Wes Schaeffer](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/author/wes-schaeffer)
Mar 08, 2025
2026 Update From Wes The tools changed. The platforms got new names, new features, and new prices....
[Read more](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/abcs-sales-and-marketing-automation-step-one-attract)
[](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/nav-pataria)
[The Sales Podcast](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/topic/the-sales-podcast)
## [Create a Business Worth Owning and a Life Worth Living, Nav Pataria](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/nav-pataria)
 [Wes Schaeffer](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/author/wes-schaeffer)
Jul 31, 2021
Nav Pataria \[ LISTEN ON APPLE PODCASTS OR SPOTIFY \]
[Read more](https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/nav-pataria)
```json
{
"@context" : "https://schema.org",
"@type" : "BlogPosting",
"author" : {
"@type" : "Person",
"name" : "Wes Schaeffer",
"url" : "https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/author/wes-schaeffer"
},
"dateModified" : "2026-11-14T19:15:09.163Z",
"datePublished" : "2026-11-14T19:11:49.000Z",
"headline" : "SYSTEMology: Make Money Without Being in Your Business—David Jenyns",
"image" : [ "https://thesaleswhisperer.com/hubfs/david-jenyns_og_1200x630.jpg" ],
"mainEntityOfPage" : {
"@id" : "https://thesaleswhisperer.com/blog/systemology-david-jenyns",
"@type" : "WebPage"
},
"publisher" : {
"@type" : "Organization",
"logo" : {
"@type" : "ImageObject",
"url" : "https://thesaleswhisperer.com/hubfs/wes-header-lockup.png"
},
"name" : "Fixer Wes"
}
}
```
```json
{
"@context" : "https://schema.org",
"@id" : "https://thesaleswhisperer.com/#organization",
"@type" : "Organization",
"founder" : {
"@id" : "https://thesaleswhisperer.com/#wes"
},
"legalName" : "TSW Group, Inc.",
"logo" : {
"@type" : "ImageObject",
"url" : "https://thesaleswhisperer.com/hs-fs/hubfs/Wes%20Schaeffer%20The%20Business%20Fixer%20white.png"
},
"name" : "The Sales Whisperer®",
"sameAs" : [ "https://www.instagram.com/fixerwes", "https://x.com/fixerwes", "https://www.linkedin.com/in/thesaleswhisperer/", "https://www.youtube.com/@TheSalesWhispererWes" ],
"url" : "https://thesaleswhisperer.com/"
}
```
```json
{
"@context" : "https://schema.org",
"@id" : "https://thesaleswhisperer.com/#website",
"@type" : "WebSite",
"name" : "The Sales Whisperer®",
"potentialAction" : {
"@type" : "SearchAction",
"query-input" : "required name=search_term_string",
"target" : {
"@type" : "EntryPoint",
"urlTemplate" : "https://thesaleswhisperer.com/hs-search-results?term={search_term_string}"
}
},
"publisher" : {
"@id" : "https://thesaleswhisperer.com/#organization"
},
"url" : "https://thesaleswhisperer.com/"
}
```
```json
{
"@context" : "https://schema.org",
"@id" : "https://thesaleswhisperer.com/#wes",
"@type" : "Person",
"alternateName" : "The Sales Whisperer",
"image" : "https://thesaleswhisperer.com/hubfs/wes-suit-forward.jpeg",
"jobTitle" : "Founder",
"name" : "Wes Schaeffer",
"sameAs" : [ "https://www.instagram.com/fixerwes", "https://x.com/fixerwes", "https://www.linkedin.com/in/thesaleswhisperer/", "https://www.youtube.com/@TheSalesWhispererWes" ],
"url" : "https://thesaleswhisperer.com/about",
"worksFor" : {
"@id" : "https://thesaleswhisperer.com/#organization"
}
}
```